Periodically I am asked,
“Jane, do you believe that some people may be beyond recovery?”
On the heels of my last post about the Definition of Recovery and the ongoing debate about what should fairly constitute recovery in the context of mental illness I thought I would examine the question.
When I look back at how far down I was I consider myself recovered.
From planning my own suicide a year in advance at age 19 to being depression free for 7 years at age 29.
From my first suicide gesture at age 14, to ten years later when I had experienced my second year without crippling depression and the second year without finding myself suicidal between the end of winter and the beginning of spring.
From being homeless at age 20 to being in college, employed and in a relationship at age 30
From having seductive whispering voices telling me that I should just die that came when I was just 7 years old to the eventual forging of the One Ruling Voice at age 23 and the eventual Great Stillness and freedom from all voices at age 26.
I have indeed come a long way back home to the place I was before life came crashing down.
In my enthusiasm of sharing my story I always say, anyone can do this if they but only try. If they stop chewing on fanciful parables and inspiring quotes and affirmations and get right into the heart of doing solid mental work, then anyone can achieve a similar state of being free.
That is true to a point. There are several reasons why any given individual will never get exactly where I went using my methods.
They quit meditation early because it’s hard.
They quit meditation because they can not sit still and never launch an investigation into why that might be.
They never learn how to meditate properly or spend enough time at it.
They never learn how to deal with triggers, personal blocks, tormenting demons or even moments of psychosis that come up in the process. Thus, they break down from meditation practice and never resolve to finish what they started.
Some folks have contacted me to tell me they have been depressed longer than I have been alive. They want to know if I think they are beyond recovery.
The interesting thing is, my elders and betters always ask my opinion of whether or not there may be hope for them
Young people under 20-25 rarely express ambiguity or wonder what I think, they flat out tell me they are beyond hope or recovery.
Others, like Pat Deegan come to believe they are their illness and that it’s natural, unchangeable and they learn to accept it.
I will say this once in this post. If you accept mental illness, if you are afraid to change and let it go and if you are already certain there is no hope for you, then, there is no hope, period.
If you refuse to accept that it is how God made you or that your mental illness is a lesson from God in humility then there is hope. If you believe you can change and you want to change and you intend on changing, then there is much hope indeed. You have between now and your last breath to change.
That may sound philosophically comforting and politically even handed but is it true?
I don’t think so.
I think that taking off from life in my early 20s was the smartest thing I have ever done. Had I failed to do that, had I waited and tried to carry on in denial as though there was nothing wrong with me then I might had slipped beyond hope too.
Think of mental illness in terms of distance traveled. The longer you drive down the road of mental illness, the deeper you go and further in to the Country of Mental Illness, the longer the drive back out again.
Another way to look at it is it took about one year of reflection and decompression to process five years of unprocessed existence.
By age 25 or so, I had taken 5 years to process 25 years. Starting at age 20 processing the first 20 years.
If you don’t get started until age 50 or 60 then you have a lot of work to do. Depending on how *deviant* your issues are overcoming that inertia and moving in the opposite direction is going to take a long time.
Your body eventually gets used to being ill, especially with depression. These days, people’s bodies get acclimated to years, decades, of drug maintenance and have literally lost the cognitive emotional processing circuits needed to deal with life’s stress thanks to the drugs. Without they drugs they become even more vulnerable. If you don’t use it, you will lose it. It’s just a matter of time.
So there are those that have been literally wedded to their depressions for decades and others that have entered the realm of *bat shit crazy* with mania, ocd, terminal narcissism and deluded thinking.
In my last post I said you can’t diagnose a mental disorder by briefly listening to someone’s voice and scrutinizing their facial reactions but I was wrong. I meant that, in my videos I try come off reasonably organized and I look what I know what I am about. I get folks that look at the title of my video be it about bipolar and schizophrenia, they skip watching the video entirely in a rush to comment about how I have a schizophrenic face or a manic demeanor without realizing they have no idea what they are talking about at all.
There are videos on youtube which highlight people who are so far gone due to depression, psychosis, mania, schizophrenia and the like, that they may indeed be beyond hope and who knows, maybe Fuller Torrey is right about this group and forced meds might be the only way the can be made to stop hurting themselves or others.
Alternately it becomes clear that sometimes meds, forced or otherwise, have no effects on people seriously mentally ill. For that I am sure if TAC could find a legal way to keep such people flat on their backs in a permanent drug induced coma as the cheapest and safest alternative to permitting such people the freedom to interact with society they would be all for it. In the name of progress of course.
Crazy Girl on Atlanta Train
Manic mother courtesy of namegoeshere @ My Bipolar Mother
Heather, schizophrenia and disorganized speech with visually evident positive and negative symptoms
compare the 3 women in those videos to these three women on youtube talking about their mental illness
depression, anxiety and bipolar
schizophrenia
schizophrenia
In my *professional* opinion one thing is obvious. Kristin, Mel and Liz are all talking about their illness while Bipolar Mom, Heather and CrazyGirlOnTrain’s illnesses are being talked about by others.
I think in terms of a road to recovery, if Mel, Liz and Kristin could get past their acceptance of the biopsychiatric paradigm then they would be prime candidates for recovery. Unfortunately I do not think it would ever occur to them to take up a regular practice of introspective and concentration meditation.
They fall under the currently meaningless mental health definition of recovery. Since they are not currently in acute care and they are taking their meds as directed some consider them recovered or recovering. Others would not consider them recovered or recovering but merely in treatment, such as it is.
If they were able to begin meditation and they followed some fairly universal rules for recovery then there is hope for all three of them. They are fully aware and cognizant that they have issues.
However MyBipolarMom, CrazyGirlOnTrain and DisorganizedHeather are probably not going to effect recovery in this lifetime.
Certain definitive changes are going on in their brains. Something, somehow, some combination of life events led them straight into madness. I would be willing to be that if you looked at childhood pictures of them or heard them speak back in the day, that there was a point when there might have been hope for them.
Incidentally, Heather, GirlonTrain and Bipolar Mom are not isolated samples. If you wander the buses and rails of San Francisco or Sacramento long enough, you will run into CrazyManonTrain, MyBipolarBrother and DisorganizedEddy. If you use public transportation daily, you will run into people like that of all ages all the time.
Such encounters do not always end pleasantly. As much as I agree with people railing against Fuller Torrey and his stigmatizing of the mentally ill and caricaturizing schizophrenics as violent it happens.
People with mental illness and bipolar and schizophrenia do become violent. I was a violent person when I was bipolar and schizoid. The emotionally disturbed teens I met in adolescent group homes were violent. The neighbors I had living in low income neighborhoods were violent. The people I met psychiatric care were violent. Both my crazy parents were violent. Homeless, mentally ill people can be violent too. Partly because of lingering ptsd. People in the street are often victims of trauma and abuse in homeless shelters, food lines, police cells, psychiatric lockdowns, and living on the street. As a result they too develop ptsd on top of the load of other mental issues.
It is hard to imagine Liz, Kristin or Mel as violent, but I have been attacked by people like Crazygirlontrain and my own bipolar mother, who sounds like namegoeshere’s bipolar mother, and who was a violent abuser when we were growing up and I eventually stood up to her and physically stopped her from attacking me.
Mentally ill people do become violent. I myself have been assaulted by people with mental illness tons of times in my life. Towards my late teens and as an adult it generally tends to be a hilariously one sided encounter in my favour because I will not allow myself to be battered by mentally ill people.
I digress.
The fact is Crazygirlontrain is probably beyond recovery. Disorganized Heather is beyond recovery and MyBipolarMother is beyond recovery.
There is nothing I can do for them. There is probably nothing psychologists can do for them. Short of a permanently induced coma. I can not see too many options other than confinement with or without industrial strength meds unless they are not a danger to themselves or others. How many other options do you think would work? Do you think these are spiritual awakenings going on here? Do you think they could be helped if given a short healing space to just be psychotic until they got over it? What if they just don’t get over it?
You really are looking for means to manage them because treating them has minimal to no lasting benefit. Even forced meds, for some just slow them down somewhat without completely diminishing or removing symptoms.
I can’t be behind forced drugging or enforced confinement for the crime of mental illness. I really don’t know what the solution is to handling the terminally mentally ill. You really don’t want to know what my solutions would be. I err towards survival and pragmatism which may clash with ideals taught in humanities classes.
Heather seems somewhat benign, unlikely to be physical, but MyBipolarMom sounds like she would be happy poisoning your drink and CrazyGirlOnTrain came within a millimeter of physical assault. As it was she was threatening passengers with assault and battery, violating personal space, verbally and emotionally assaulting people.
At any rate. I do think some people are definitely beyond recovery. Including the woman in this video as a late addition to clips of people on youtube likely never to recover from mental illness at the level that is discussed on this blog and on my videos.
Also, what is the relationship between religion and mental illness? Joan of Arc spoke with St Catherine. Pat Deegan is on a mission from a higher power. The woman in the video above talks about Jesus. Mel’sBasketcase is obsessed with the bible.
My own mother was chronically mentally ill and every other word out of her mouth has some kind of holy spin on it. You could not have a conversation with her that ultimately did not come down to religion or religious overtones. Even in my last correspondence with my mother was there several references to prayer and god on her end.
If you idle in San Francisco streets or ride buses round here it is only a matter of time before you run into someone ranting about Jesus. When I mean ranting it could be quiet constant under the breath muttering on the bus to outright screaming in the middle of the street downtown about God, Sin, Satan, etc, etc. Why are mentally ill people obsessed with religion? What is the relationship between paranoid delusions and hearing god, demons, angels or saints?
In the final analysis for some people a full recovery is just not possible with the limits of psychiatry and medical science. To effect a recovery at the level discussed here requires a certain amount of intelligence, it requires personal responsibility and brutal self honesty. If you don’t have all three lined up, contemplative discipline is not going to work for you.
great analysis Jane!
here’s another good bunch of recovery stories:
http://voices-of-recovery-schizophrenia.blogspot.com/
By: Denise on July 12, 2008
at 5:50 am
I don’t know if they really are beyond recovery. Never say never. It doesn’t look too good, though.
Spiritual awakening: It certainly once was an attempt to awake spiritually. Unfortunately, they seem to be more or less totally (chronically) stuck in an attempt that wasn’t supported and thus failed completely, resulting in he opposite of what it could have resulted in, if it had been supported.
I’d say, get them off the street, out of the train, out of state hospital, and take them somewhere safe (both for themselves and others, and if necessary forcibly…) where they’re allowed time and space (huge amounts of both) to “come to their senses”, supported by truly compassionate (and competent) people, and they have a chance. There are studies, that have shown those with the most serious issues to also be most likely to recover. However, I agree, meditation, in private, without 24/7 support, won’t do for them.
And, yes, on the one hand, recovery (the real McCoy) presupposes that you accept to have issues – personally I don’t accept that I’d be or have been “mentally ill”, but I do accept, and have done so for some time, that I have/have had some serious existential problems that would need my attention ;) – while on the other it presupposes that you don’t identify with (condone) some lifelong, chronic brain dysfunction. Goes without saying.
By: Marian on July 12, 2008
at 8:04 am
Thanks for the link Denise and good to see you again! I followed the link and the next post here I will use some material from that site. Fantastic find.
“I do accept, and have done so for some time, that I have/have had some serious existential problems that would need my attention”
Then we are totally on the same page.
Wonderful wisdom for those not in the know, that the statement above is, I suspect what most people are really suffering from.
Left unattended it can get real bad as in the examples above.
Your solution to housing and care is both wise and humane and hopefully, ultimately, that is probably where we are headed.
By: Jane on July 12, 2008
at 9:28 am
Interesting post, My mother was very bipolar, I am to a degree, I have a friend who is having so much trouble staying clean and I think he has some undisclosed underlying abuse issue, because I’ve known him for like 17-18 years and I’ve been clean over 19 and I try to tell him how I did it, but he’s not getting it and I think he has abuse issues he is hiding so I always feel I have to qualify if you just can’t stand it, you need professional help. No clear answer, but his MD’s don’t do much because he can get them to give him drugs he wants and with 2-3 days clean, how could any MD know how to adjust his meds? It messy, serial relapse and no spiritual awakening but there is always hope? How does one know if one is beyond AA?NA and what to do with such a person, how to help? In some ways too much money, too good a lawyers and compliant MD’s are to blame, but hope springs eternal.
By: Dummidumbwit on July 12, 2008
at 11:31 am
I like to think there is some small chance of hope for all of us. No matter what. I am not sure it’s realistic, but there you go. I still hope anyway.
Thanks for stopping by and sharing.
By: Jane on July 12, 2008
at 1:56 pm
Your welcome, ps anyone tracing my link back can find “spiritual topics and posts”, but be forewarned, it is more a humor and Political blog, try typing Eleanor Roosevelt into the search box if you want ?
By: dummidumbwit on July 13, 2008
at 1:07 pm
hi jane
thanks for your recent posts!
recovery for me has just started. i stopped taking zyprexa 17 days ago. i’m actually dreaming again, i haven’t dreamt for over a year! thankyou also for all the links you supply.
By: prkally on July 13, 2008
at 3:35 pm
Hey congratulations prkally! That is wonderful news! Here is to your continued recovery!
and you are very welcome :)
thanks for stopping by and commenting.
By: Jane on July 13, 2008
at 7:47 pm
Very interesting post. Have been mulling it over! Was thinking about Winston Churchill and his black dog. Clearly, to Churchill, depression was a visitor, something outside himself, rather than a part of his psyche. He didn’t identify with it – just wanted it to go away! And it is in the “making it go away” that we all respond differently. Although I come from a family riddled with depression, I refused to believe that it would come my way de facto. Nothing makes me feel less hopeful than the endless mantra “it runs in the family”.
I don’t believe that my depression is inescapable. Currently, I am taking anti-depressants. Came off them a few months ago and descended into chaos. So now, taking them but also practising yoga, meditation and, by awareness of what I am thinking, stopping myself from drifting into the realm of the black dog.
By: totalblue on July 14, 2008
at 11:00 am
You have a wonderful attitude about bearing mental illness and recovery.
Although I have strong opinions and feelings about psychiatric medications I am no stranger to self medicating to try live my life and function better. Fear not that you will be judged here on that account. :)
Everything in it’s time in place. It sounds like you have recovery structure in place and a good wellness regimen.
Ultimately as long you are patient with yourself and you expect those back slides to occur and prepare yourself and forgive yourself for them then you are going to be fine in the long run
I wish you only the best in your recovery from the black pooch.
By: Jane on July 14, 2008
at 1:40 pm
“The fact is Crazygirlontrain is probably beyond recovery. Disorganized Heather is beyond recovery and MyBipolarMother is beyond recovery.”
I watched portions of the three videos. I wasn’t sure that I was seeing schizophrenia or bipolar in all instances. A brief commentary on each…
Girl on a Train: What disturbed me about this video was that we, as observers, do not know what was happening with this young woman. We don’t know if she was drinking, we don’t know if she was on drugs, and I was never clear on what the elderly woman said to her that provoked her response. According to “Girl’s” self report, she was raped at some point in time. We can conclude that she has some trauma in her background and we can also conclude that when people behave in ways that don’t make sense to those around them, when people act out, when they shout, when they express distress in ways that are not socially sanctioned, the people around them often become frightened and judgemental.
My BiPolar Mother: My first question is, who made the diagnosis of BiPolar disorder? The son? To be sure, he doesn’t have a very healthy relationship with his mother. She’s angry, she feels betrayed, she’s vindictive, her own maturily levels don’t seem to have taken her very far, but is she bipolar or is it simply that it’s easy to label people we don’t get along with?
Disorganized Heather: The diagnosis for “Girl” and “Mother” might be unknown but we do know that Heather has received a diagnosis. She’s been in and out of private and public facilities and we can reasonably conclude that she’s been medicated. We can only guess at how her treatment has affected her sense of self-confidence and independance.
Are all of these women beyond recovery now? Maybe. But were they always beyond recovery or have their options been limited by the responses of those around them and the treatment or lack thereof that they may have received?
I didn’t watch the other videos of Liz, Mel or Kristen. Perhaps I will later if time permits. However, I certainly do prescribe to the thought that beyond a basic definition (i.e. working, no distrubing symptoms, healthy relationships) it’s not for me to define what someone else’s recovery should look like. I came to this conclusion a few years ago after having my own experiences invalidated by those around me — according to them, it didn’t happen. Or it didn’t happen according to their expectations of how it should have happened. They knew nothing of me. Nothing of my life. Nothing of my experience.
Likewise, it is invalidating to say to another human being, you can’t ever recover, or you can’t ever call it recovery if you still take medication. Their experience of recovery belongs to them, not anyone else. We can learn from it, we can measure it against our own, but it’s not for us to take and do with it what we will.
By: spiritual_emergency on July 15, 2008
at 5:05 am
Your thorough reply deserves a response. I’d like to get to it as time permits.
Right now I must focus on the psychosis stuff.
Suffice it to say for the moment that both Bipolar Mom and CrazyGirlOnTrain have both been clinically diagnosed with Bipolar.
The reasons for their apparent psychotic behaviors has been attributed by their families as being due to lack of antipsychotic medications that were used effectively previously.
BipolarMother is blogged and vlogged about by her son.
http://mybipolarmother.wordpress.com/
CrazygirlonTrain’s family called a radio station that was talking about her to mention she was Bipolar.
http://sandrarose.com/2008/05/09/soulja-girl-arrested/
http://www.zshare.net/audio/1177988823c05603/
I watched all four of those videos several times before I wrote this post. I have watched them several times each since.
I’d love to get back to this and clarify a few things when I finish my psychosis accounting.
By: Jane on July 16, 2008
at 11:52 am
Jane,
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Do you think these are spiritual awakenings going on here? Do you think they could be helped if given a short healing space to just be psychotic until they got over it? What if they just don’t get over it?’
Would you mind explaining it to someone who isn’t into meditation?
spiritual_emergency,
My mother was diagnosed by two psychologists and a psychiatrist on three different occasions spanning 20 years, in three different states no less.
If I had to guess, my mother passed the point of no return when my brother was killed in a car accident. A traumatic event for anyone, but probably permanent for someone with her particular sensitivities. She worsened by an order of magnitude over the next year, and has progressed steadily since then.
By: namegoeshere on July 17, 2008
at 8:16 pm
SE: “Likewise, it is invalidating to say to another human being, you can’t ever recover, or you can’t ever call it recovery if you still take medication.”
I agree 100% to the first. The second: Ron Unger descibes the problem with calling someone, who still depends on the services of the mental health system (drugs) “recovered” (link to his blog post at Jane’s post “The Definition of Recovery”). Personally, I see this problem very clearly manifest itself in the way, the Danish mental health system by now defines recovery (eventually, they found a way how to make the recovery concept acceptable to them, after years of fighting it). That is, as having learned to live with a lifelong, chronic illness. Period.
To water down the concept of recovery to this definition is to empty it of all of its meaning, and refill it with psychiatric meaning(-lessness). It also goes against the first part of your statement.
Concurrent with Ron, I’d say: let’s talk about DEGREES OF recovery, and avoid to let full recovery (many if not most people understand “recovery” as *full recovery*) equal to still being dependent on the services of the mental health system. That is partial recovery, not full recovery, which implies, that further recovery is possible. Something, the Danish mental health system’s adaptation (and not only the DANISH mental health system’s) of the recovery concept unfortunately and wrongfully excludes, the recovery movement thus being dangerously close to being back at square one.
By: Marian on July 18, 2008
at 4:48 am
…it was meant to be a closing bracket, not a smiley…
fixed :)
By: Marian on July 18, 2008
at 4:49 am
http://dummidumbwit.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/bernard-cornwells-the-sharpes-series-literature/
It might seem off topic, but books help my brain be better than anything else?
By: dummidumbwit on July 18, 2008
at 7:45 am
namegoeshere: My mother was diagnosed by two psychologists and a psychiatrist on three different occasions spanning 20 years, in three different states no less.
Hello namegoeshere. I’m assuming you are the son of the mother in the video. Thank you for not taking offense at my question. My first response when confronted with evidence of extreme behavior is to ask more questions — What’s going on here? What happened in this person’s life? What kind of treatment and diagnosis have they received? Who provided it? As much as possible, I resist reacting to behavior that is indisputably “different” but may be “understandable” when placed within context of that individual’s life experience.
If I had to guess, my mother passed the point of no return when my brother was killed in a car accident. A traumatic event for anyone, but probably permanent for someone with her particular sensitivities. She worsened by an order of magnitude over the next year, and has progressed steadily since then.
Trauma can be the wheelbarrow that transports someone to the edge. The reality is, not everyone makes it back.
I have a (non-blood) family member with a diagnosis of bipolar and that individual has not recovered. It has meant a hellish ride for them, and those around them. I truly wish I knew of some magical solution but I have no doubt you’ve wished doubly-hard for the same.
Marion: I agree 100% to the first. The second: Ron Unger descibes the problem with calling someone, who still depends on the services of the mental health system (drugs) “recovered” (link to his blog post at Jane’s post “The Definition of Recovery”).
In defining what recovery means I think we have to be capable of looking at the process through different lenses. Two of the lenses I use are the “personal” and the “professional”. I also use a previously mentioned set of criteria, i.e. engaged in productive activity such as work or school, etc.
To draw an analogy…
If a man was injured in a car accident and lost the use of his legs but has since gone on in life to marry, to have a successful career, to do the kinds of things we equate with a “good” life, I’m not going to tell that man he’s not recovered because he hasn’t regained the use of his legs. Self-definitions of recovery may include the acknowledgement that “trade-offs” may become a necessary part of living. That man may never walk again, but he has still created a good, meaningful and productive life for himself.
Likewise, if someone self-defines as recovered and they have healthy relationships, are engaged in productive activity, secure living accomodations, etc. but still take medication, I’m not going to tell them they’re not recovered. It’s not for me to decide what makes their life meaningful, what trade-offs they should or shouldn’t find personally acceptable.
As a general rule, I’m opposed to medication. I think if you can possibly avoid it, you should do so. In spite of feeling that way I know that many people identify medication as being helpful, even crucial to their recovery. This is true even if they despise taking it. They do so because they find life to be better for them if they do than if they don’t. Of course, many other people find the opposite to be true. Both perspectives are equally valid when meansured against a personal scale. For this reason, I’m as opposed to forced non-medication as I am to forced medication. People need to have choice and flexibility in determining what’s going to be best for them.
When we view recovery from a professional standard however, it’s not acceptable — in my eyes — to call a medicated recovery, “full” recovery and this is because we know that the use of medication comes with its own host of problems. I wouldn’t find it acceptable for a psychiatrist to say, “I gave my patients diabetes instead of psychosis and now they’re all fine! They’re not fine. They still have diabetes and maybe they can accept that and still find a way to create a meaningful life for themselves, but the professional doesn’t get to impose the expectation of acceptance upon them and claim that recovery was achieved. From a professional standpoint, recovery should include being “medication free”.
To sum up, I think we need to take care to not invalidate someone’s hard-won efforts to create a meaningful life for themselves but we also need to hold professionals to a different standard and set of criteria.
I haven’t read Ron Unger’s comments but it sounds to me as if your objection to the Danish system is that they’ve taken the self-definitions out of the personal and are attempting to use it in the professional.
Have I understood your objection correctly?
Regards,
s_e
.
By: spiritual_emergency on July 18, 2008
at 10:33 am
Are all of these women beyond recovery now? Maybe. But were they always beyond recovery or have their options been limited by the responses of those around them and the treatment or lack thereof that they may have received?
Yes without doubt, I ask this question myself every time.
I watched portions of the three videos. I wasn’t sure that I was seeing schizophrenia or bipolar in all instances. A brief commentary on each
I am sure your time was limited. Personally I was not comfortable talking about them until I had watched each vid the entire duration , with and without audio or audio only no vid a couple times each in order to really analyze what was in those videos.
Girl on a Train: What disturbed me about this video was that we, as observers, do not know what was happening with this young woman. We don’t know if she was drinking, we don’t know if she was on drugs, and I was never clear on what the elderly woman said to her that provoked her response.
GirlonTrain’s behavior far exceeded appropriateness and boundaries to the point of violating other people’s right not to have to deal with her and thus she ended up arrested for disturbing the peace I believe.
My BiPolar Mother: My first question is, who made the diagnosis of BiPolar disorder? The son? To be sure, he doesn’t have a very healthy relationship with his mother. She’s angry, she feels betrayed, she’s vindictive, her own maturity levels don’t seem to have taken her very far, but is she bipolar or is it simply that it’s easy to label people we don’t get along with?
I answered that in a previous comment and MBM has gratuitously commented on it as well.
but is she bipolar or is it simply that it’s easy to label people we don’t get along with?
That is the issue of these times really. Childhood bipolar? Oppositional defiance? ADHD? It’s natural to want to pigeon hole everything and render judgment. That’s what we do. I am guilty of it myself.
The problems are subjectively experienced. Let me play at being a psychiatry apologist. We need to a language to talk about mental health/mental wellness/mental illness experiences.
It is the very problem that *each of our own experiences of madness and recovery are unique and personal*. That may be true on one level. On another level. From a scientific point of view, comparing, observing, labeling, concepts like *symptom cluster* and *standard deviation from the norm* are working concepts to *evidenced based reasoning* or science or medicine or whatever.
Every object in the sky, every plant and animal gets a label. That’s how it is. We are chaffing at the labels we have contrived up in psychiatry the and societal and personal effects of living underneath the shadow of labels and psychiatry.
it’s not for me to define what someone else’s recovery should look like.
I am struggling with that right now. Until the last 16 months. I had never spoken of my recovery nor had I made any effort to learn about them. For the last year finding recovery stories has been of great interest.
I quickly learned that not everyone achieves the same level of recovery. Thus I willingly biased my own interest in recovery to those whose recovery closest matched my own within the terms and framework of my own recovery. My recovery was not entirely wholly unique and personal. Others have a achieved similar recoveries and lend a validity to my own telling of the tale. Although it may be problematic to define someone else’s recovery certainly from a subjective point of view an individual looks for similar characteristics to their own experience.
I came to this conclusion a few years ago after having my own experiences invalidated by those around me — according to them, it didn’t happen. Or it didn’t happen according to their expectations of how it should have happened. They knew nothing of me. Nothing of my life. Nothing of my experience.
I empathize with much of that. From my own experience I’ve already been subject to those forms of invalidation repeatedly. Ever since I started talking about it publicly volunteers from the invalidation police have shown up to mock, malign, judge, redefine, or deny me the experience of my own life. I never let them get me down for the same reasons you mentioned. They have no idea, After the initial indignation and irritation I find it predictable and mildly amusing now. People change but slowly.
Likewise, it is invalidating to say to another human being, you can’t ever recover,
I agree. I was told that so many times I almost believed it myself. I think when we quantify our usage of the word and begin to compare honestly we are going to find that certain levels of recovery are unlikely to be attained by certain people. When we look at the course of their life and measure their *descent* then we measure how far back they would need to come, and measure that against their current progress/rate of return/recovery and measure that against their remaining lifespan we can make some fairly accurate predictions about their potential for recovery.
That is why I said *probably* no hope for girlontrain. She looked and sounded like if she got busy right away on effecting a *spiritual recovery* then her chances are probably good. However in light of her *deviation* in lieu of the knowledge that she is *bipolar* and without meds. Assuming it isn’t med related issues, assuming it was not drugs or alchohol, if that was her natural psychosis in the raw, then she has a major problem that is probably not temporary. If that performance was triggered by a mere word from an old lady and was not fueled by chemicals states of any kind then she has *issues* insider her. Just taking psych meds or being wrapped in blanket in a quiet room and left alone is probably not going to fix it any time soon.
Bipolar mom’s sheer pathos evidenced by her words, ( I’ve listened to most if not all of the numerous vids that MBM has on his you tube channel.) indicates to me someone that is not coming back. I would be willing to bet money that she will not ever reach a state of recovery where she is no longer irrational, spiteful and so completely deliriously narcissistic.
As far as Heather goes, it’s rare to see someone presenting symptoms of her severity outside institutions. They can not take care of their basic needs. Without state care and her family she would be eating out of dumpsters wearing 20 different unrelated elements of clothing pushing a cart and sleeping wherever. You can find people that talk like that walking around San Francisco if you know where to go and keep your eyes open.
Likewise, it is invalidating to say to another human being, you can’t ever recover,
Despite this, I believe I am right and I have no issues with my own conclusions in this matter. Those two women are beyond recovery at the level that is discussed on this blog and on my videos. I am willing to call a spade a spade when I see it, despite the risk of invalidation. Please believe me that I would love nothing more then to be proven wrong.
Their experience of recovery belongs to them, not anyone else.
We can learn from it, we can measure it against our own, but it’s not for us to take and do with it what we will.
That does not mean we can’t talk about it learn from it analyze it, dissect it, and make judgments or predictions about it. We just have to be aware of the factor of error , the possibility we are wrong, when we render judgment and acknowledge that.
or you can’t ever call it recovery if you still take medication.
Here is where we officially part ways in agreement very specifically.
Marian has come along and given you a better answer than I can do because I am not as good as she is at being fair (yet).
I didn’t watch the other videos of Liz, Mel or Kristen. Perhaps I will later if time permits.
They are modeling recovery after your definition, after Barber’s definition. Not after my definition or Unger’s definition. That is why we call it an ongoing debate of some controversy.
Within your frame of reference, they are recovered.
However, what happens when Liz and Kristin stop meds? They both admit that life gets worse soon after. Symptoms return to plague them.
How is that is recovery? It is not. It’s dependency is what it is. In terms of getting a job and having relationships great that’s fantastic. Yet without meds the original conditions remain and return. So the fairest meaningful definition is really that they are highly functioning despite the ongoing presence of illness. That sounds like ongoing treatment and management. I do not buy the * mental disease is like diabetes and without meds you die* paradigm.
I guess if you aspire at all costs to be able to go through life and do what everyone else is doing. If it means so much to you that you be seen going through the motions of life that you must scramble back to the realm of normalcy by any means necessary than meds maybe the best you can do. I don’t think it ever occurs to people to wonder why they feel compelled to just be a mainstreaming member of society at all times. As though taking 5 or 10 years off from life to sideline things like having a career, family, social life, etc etc is irresponsible or unrealistic.
So in the haste to climb back on the horse and carry on one never gives themselves the time and space needed to discover who they are, what they are, what the meaning of life is, self love, what they want out of life etc. It is a rush to get back to the level of consumption and normalcy that one’s peer enjoy.
If you just want to recover to get employable again so you can have the financial power to go shopping once again and to be seen in society looking successful and stable, then perhaps eternal meds is going to be best that you can do..
If your mental illness is due to having lesions on the brain then perhaps meds are going to get them as stable as they can be.
If your mental illness is not due to meds, drugs, withdrawal, lesions, hormone issues then I think we have to consider what kind of effects we can get from other treatments.
I don’t think perma meds is the last line of recovery in many cases. There may be avenues yet untried, untested that could lead to an even greater achievement of recovery. If those avenues remain untested, unused than at best they can be said to have achievement *some level* of recovery, partial recovery and not full recovery.
I no longer need to meditate 8 hours a day in order to keep myself stable. I made permanent changes in my mind, in my brain that allowed me to wean off my meds. My meds were sitting alone all day meditating in the woods. I am no longer dependent on that to uphold my mental and emotional health. I recovered beyond the need for that level of support.
If I still needed to meditate all day to stay sane, I would not have made a blog called bipolar recovery. Likewise, if I was taking a variety of psych meds to stay sane, I would not have made a blog called bipolar recovery.
Ron Unger How should recovery be defined?
I agree with Marian and with Ron.
From your definition, recovery is anything you want it to be. My definition of recovery is a natural, non dependent, organic permanent recovery from symptoms, I won’t budge easily off that definition at this time.
By: Jane on July 18, 2008
at 12:07 pm
dumdumwit,
I am with you there, books are great brain support.
Thanks for the link!
namegoeshere
“Jane,
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Do you think these are spiritual awakenings going on here? Do you think they could be helped if given a short healing space to just be psychotic until they got over it? What if they just don’t get over it?’
Would you mind explaining it to someone who isn’t into meditation?”
Certainly.
In recent months and weeks as I warm up to discussing my own psychotic states I have read many accountings of psychosis, psychotic states, psychotic behaviors, psychotic breaks and so on.
Most of what I know of as psychotic breaks were very disturbing.
In other accountings I read about such things as delusional beliefs about things. Such as a persistent delusion that one’s mattress has cockroaches inside it. Without an evidenced based reason, we can call that a psychotic break.
Another example is a persisting delusion that there are surveillance devices wired into your home and that the government is spying on you constantly.
Again without proof or evidence, reason, motive, etc etc, we can consider that psychotic according to the terms we have been given to work with in psychiatry.
Watching CrazyGirlOnTrain or listening to your mother’s voice once can conclude some kind of psychosis going on.
There are those that believe that psychotic states are not simply aberrant electrical storms of the brain or some chemical imbalance.
They believe that those psychotic states are in truth imminent spiritual crisis, a collapse of ego and identity.
They purpose that psychosis is a religious state, a spiritual experience, a spiritual emergency, a shamanic healing process etc etc.
As I analyze my own psychotic experiences the closest I can compare them to is the nest of links I provided above to horrible stories of sociopathic, narcissistic, abusive, homicidal, suicidal psychosis.
I compared my psychosis, mania and behavior to GirlOnTrain,MyBipolarMom and Heather.
I ask if those manifestations of psychosis are some kind of spiritual emergency induced psychosis or something else.
It is partly a rhetorical question because I have already made my judgment in the matter.
I don’t think your mother, Heather or SouljaGirl are experiencing spiritual emergencies, ego collapses, dark nights of the soul, mysterium tremendum or some kind shamanic healing processes.
I don’t think I was experiencing that either.
My psychotic experiences were not like Souljagirls, not like your mother, not like heathers, not like Sean Blackwell’s Bipolar or Waking up, not like Spiritual Emergencies’s shamanic healing state. It was not a paranoid delusion involving thinking the Feds were after me or that bugs inhabited my stuff. There were no drugs involved in my psychosis.
Unlike all the psychosis stories I read about or viewed on youtube, mine were not like any of them. My experiences were malevolent.
They were closer to the more horrific instances of psychotic mania as evidenced by the stories and reports I linked to above.
By: Jane on July 18, 2008
at 12:55 pm
Re: You can’t ever recover…
Jane: Despite this, I believe I am right and I have no issues with my own conclusions in this matter. Those two women are beyond recovery at the level that is discussed on this blog and on my videos. I am willing to call a spade a spade when I see it, despite the risk of invalidation. Please believe me that I would love nothing more then to be proven wrong.
Hello once more Jane — it’s an interesting discussion we’re all having here. It may not be conclusive, but it certainly is informative. In regard to your statement above, I did want to offer the following…
I have entitled this presentation, “Long Term Outcome for Rehabiliated Psychiatric Patients: Reasons for Optimism“. The plan this morning is to look at recovery and the evidence for it among people with very serious mental illness. Let us look at some things that we’ve learned about rehabilitation and also a little bit about resilience. I’m going to present seven of the ten world studies this morning.
Now, when we talk about subjects who are recovered, we’re talking about no medications, no symptoms, being able to work, relating to other people well, living in the community, and behaving in a way that you would never know that they had had a serious psychiatric disorder. And if you have heard of that old belief that one third get better, one third get worse, and one third stay the same, we found that it was not true. In the Vermont Longtitudinal Study, we took the bottom third of this population and found that two-thirds of them also turned around…
– Dr. Courtenay Harding
——————————————————————————–
Dr. Harding’s data are all the more powerful because she was studying the bottom 19% in the functional hierarchy in a large state hospital. Some of the people in her study had regressed to speaking in animal-like sounds. Most had been in the institution for 10 or so years, many had been in and out repeatedly. The cohort is the least functional ever studied in world literature on schizophrenia. Nevertheless, of this bottom 19%, 62% to 68% fully recovered or significantly improved.
– Dr. Edward Knight
Source: Schizophrenia & Hope
The difficulty with trying to predict who will recover and who won’t is that our prediction has as much to do with “our” hopelessness as “their” present state. What we do know is that some people recover and some people don’t. We need to be learning from people who are producing recovery for themselves and/or others so that we can better assist those who have not yet recovered.
As you know, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are considered to be two different disorders but there is a great deal of cross-over. As I understand it, schizophrenia is considered to be “worse” of the two so I think if long-term schizophrenics — the worst of the worse, no less — can make a full or partial recovery decades after their condition first struck, that bodes well for those who suffer from similar conditions.
There are those that believe that psychotic states are not simply aberrant electrical storms of the brain or some chemical imbalance.
They believe that those psychotic states are in truth imminent spiritual crisis, a collapse of ego and identity.
If you’ve read my blogs at all you’ll know that I frequently champion the work of one fellow in particular, the late Jungian-trained psychiatrist, John Weir Perry. I praise Perry’s work because he took young adults in the throes of psychosis and achieved an 85% recovery rate with them, without medication. You’ll note that that leaves 15% — an indication that not everyone can recover.
It would take far more than your comment section to begin to unpack the concepts we could look at in terms of spiritual emergencies, collapse of the ego, Jungian applications, etc. but I do get the impression that you think one form of psychosis is pretty and shiny and easy, and the other is dirty and difficult and ugly. However, I would think you could be open to the idea that even the most difficult life events have the opportunity to produce immense personal growth.
Meanwhile, I understand that you’re still working on your psychosis section and intend to go into your own personal experience in more depth there. I’ll keep an eye on the section and perhaps offer some comments at that time.
Regards,
s_e
.
By: spiritual_emergency on July 18, 2008
at 2:11 pm
It would take far more than your comment section to begin to unpack the concepts we could look at in terms of spiritual emergencies, collapse of the ego, Jungian applications, etc. but I do get the impression that you think one form of psychosis is pretty and shiny and easy, and the other is dirty and difficult and ugly.
That is a simplified summation but it’s accurate enough
edit:
easy vs difficult… that’s tricky. It’s not an accurate summation that I categorize one as easy and the other as difficult
more like some are allegedly healing and somewhat benign while others are completely the opposite, they are shattering and awful
However, I would think you could be open to the idea that even the most difficult life events have the opportunity to produce immense personal growth.
In all humility I think most of this blog and most of my video content is a testament to that fact. I already agree wholeheartedly
Meanwhile, I understand that you’re still working on your psychosis section and intend to go into your own personal experience in more depth there. I’ll keep an eye on the section and perhaps offer some comments at that time.
Thank you,
Two things,
One from glancing at your reading list you have studied a mountain of alternative western psychology to whatever end.
I have not. Not even remotely. The Jung that I read was the forward to the Bardo Thodol.
I had never heard of Mosher or Tolle or Wilbur or any of the other titles listed between your sites and some of Sean’s work at BiplorWUp. Not until the last year anyway. Certainly with my projects I have neither the time nor inclination to read up on that at this time.
I missed out on all that i am afraid nor I am up on all the alternative studies, healing modalities and psychological frameworks that exist in that body of work.
I have the psychiatric model of mental illness as the measuring stick and diagnostic that I was labeled in.
My psychology is based on eastern philosophy and unraveling key Buddhist and Taoist insights for myself.
The recovery discussed on this blog was made possible due entirely to my understanding of the chinese medical model of illness and fixing with it with chi gung and the meditation instructions handed down by the the elders in the trade
So I know very little of these Shadow states and ego collapses and all that good stuff.
The paradigm that succeeded in healing me was returning to the state of the Original Mind and freeing all the energies of my body mind and heart. It was about Returning to where I was before my mind fractured and distorted. It was discovering myself and dissolving everything about myself into nothingness. It was the result of surrendering into my being and falling in love with myself as a spiritual person.
It was the tried and true method of many of the Asian meditation saints and it just so happened to work for me.
That healing process banished years of what amounted to in psychiatry as several incurable genetic diseases.
Just so you know or realize the differences in our respective view points and biases. I haven’t read all those books you have. My perspective of the mind, my spiritual *framework* is aligned with a fusion of buddhist and taoist philosophy
Second I do appreciate your contributions. I have not previously had the opportunity to compare notes with an individual so steeped in alternative psychology as you are.
Take care for now,
By: Jane on July 18, 2008
at 2:47 pm
Re: The Issue of Medication…
Jane: How is that is recovery? It is not. It’s dependency is what it is. In terms of getting a job and having relationships great that’s fantastic. Yet without meds the original conditions remain and return. So the fairest meaningful definition is really that they are highly functioning despite the ongoing presence of illness. That sounds like ongoing treatment and management. I do not buy the * mental disease is like diabetes and without meds you die* paradigm.
I don’t buy that either, what I do buy is that…
a.) People are entitled to informed consent regarding any medications that might be used in their treatment. In all honesty, I’ve rarely seen this happen. More often, people are encouraged to take the medication while they’re either in a crisis or captive state because it will make them “feel better” or the presiding authority has dictated that you should. Nonetheless, there is a wealth of material out there for people who are willing to inform themselves and many people choose to withdraw from medication once the crisis or captive state has passed.
b.) People are entitled to know that medication is not necessary in all instances. Many people have made a full recovery without medication. Cross-cultural studies can offer more information in this regard.
c.) If a person has been fully informed, if they are aware of alternative approaches and they either find them unhelpful or don’t wish to pursue them, it should be their choice to take the medication because it is their life.
The critical factor is that as much as possible, the individual is making their own choices as based on what they believe will be best for them. Anything less, whether it’s forced medication or forced non-medication is simply an other imposing power upon them.
I guess if you aspire at all costs to be able to go through life and do what everyone else is doing. If it means so much to you that you be seen going through the motions of life that you must scramble back to the realm of normalcy by any means necessary than meds maybe the best you can do. I don’t think it ever occurs to people to wonder why they feel compelled to just be a mainstreaming member of society at all times. As though taking 5 or 10 years off from life to sideline things like having a career, family, social life, etc etc is irresponsible or unrealistic.
I think you’ve raised an important point in regard to productivity. A similar dynamic can be seen in the early treatment of soldiers suffering with, now recognized, post-traumatic-stress-disorder…
The soldier who developed a traumatic neurosis was at best a constitutionally inferior human being, at worst, a malingerer and a coward. They were described as moral invalids. Hysterical symptoms such as mutism, sensory loss, or motor paralysis were treated with electric shock; threatened with court martial. The goal of treatment was to return the soldier to combat.
Source: Judith Herman: Trauma & Recovery
We see this happen in treatment for “severe mental illness” as well wherein a person is hospitalized and medicated with the intention of getting them “back on their feet” as quickly as possible. If they’re able to return to work or school quickly, that’s labelled as a success even though what might have been best for them would have been a longer rehabilitation period wherein they could — as you suggest — have begun processing and integrating the life events that lead to their crisis. The “slap-em-back-together” approach is the favored one. Like you, I found it best to withdraw from the world for a while and I lived very quietly for a few years. I still slip into silence as I determine necessary.
.
By: spiritual_emergency on July 18, 2008
at 2:48 pm
“We see this happen in treatment for “severe mental illness” as well wherein a person is hospitalized and medicated with the intention of getting them “back on their feet” as quickly as possible. If they’re able to return to work or school quickly, that’s labelled as a success even though what might have been best for them would have been a longer rehabilitation period wherein they could — as you suggest — have begun processing and integrating the life events that lead to their crisis. The “slap-em-back-together” approach is the favored one. Like you, I found it best to withdraw from the world for a while and I lived very quietly for a few years. I still slip into silence as I determine necessary.”
This is one your most insightful comments in a long line of insightful comments in this thread.
I am glad that worked for you and continues to work for you.
Too often withdrawing is seen as a bad thing to be avoided at all costs in favor of being surrounded by supporting others.
What happens when you can not handle other people supportive or not? When the psychic pressure of even one or two people near you is too much, too overwhelming?
It goes against the therapeutic recovery model which states the the recovering mental patient must have strong social support
well that was not true for me.
I cherished my aloneness it was the healing environment I needed.
It is good to know I am not alone in that method.
thanks again
By: Jane on July 18, 2008
at 3:34 pm
Slightly confused, it’s late here in good old Europe…
SE: “Have I understood your objection correctly?” Yes.
I see, what you mean. However, if someone feels, they have a fulfilled life in every regard but still need drugs, I think it’s to lull them into the maybe false belief, that this is as good as it can get. While it is true for someone who has lost his legs, that he will never have them back again, it isn’t necessarily true for someone who’s on some kind of psych drugs, that they never will be able to get off them.
On the other hand, I sometimes wonder whether at all the 100%-version of recovery as a state, that wouldn’t need constant renewal, is a possibility concerning existential crises. Since I regard the whole process of being on this earth in the shape of a human being as one ongoing existential crisis (and acute crisis as “exaggerated normality”, exaggerated in order to bring the suffering into consciousness) with only one way out of this suffering: becoming 100% conscious, “enlightened”. While enlightenment, as I see it, is not a stable state, but needs renewal, each and every moment (although it doesn’t need to be eight hours of meditation in the woods a day, since practice sooner or later will let you do everything in a meditative – present – state of mind).
In other words, “full recovery” in regard to so-called “mental illness” in my view equals to enlightenment, the complete absence of (existential/spiritual/ psychological/ whatever of that kind) suffering. While you can achieve that even though you’ve lost your legs, or are in other ways physically disabled, the need for psych drugs implies that you still suffer existentially.
Jane: to me the term “spiritual” isn’t limited to religious or shamanic or something like that. I find striking resemblance between how a spiritual emergency usually is defined, and how Jacques Lacan for instance defines psychosis. With Jacques Lacan being a scientist and (western) philosopher. The difference to me is exclusively at the level of terminology.
“Meds become a form of permanent avoidance.” – Exactly. Loren Mosher was in on that, and Eckhart Tolle is also, actually. (Note: a psychiatrist/scientist and a spiritual teacher)
By: Marian on July 18, 2008
at 4:25 pm
Before I’m definitely off to bed:
Jane: at the site of the isps you can find some articles that describe people, who very easily could be labelled “beyond recovery”, e.g. here: http://www.isps-us.org/articles/stockholm.htm
Another example, you maybe know, is Catherine Penney. See http://www.dantescure.com
By: Marian on July 18, 2008
at 4:42 pm
Jane: Just so you know or realize the differences in our respective view points and biases. I haven’t read all those books you have. My perspective of the mind, my spiritual *framework* is aligned with a fusion of buddhist and taoist philosophy.
And you probably have more familiarity with buddhist and taoist philosophies than I might. I have however, found the work of Buddhist nun, Pema Chodron, to be of great solace and frequently recommend one practice in particular to others: Tonglen. You might be familiar with that one already.
Second I do appreciate your contributions. I have not previously had the opportunity to compare notes with an individual so steeped in alternative psychology as you are.
Likewise. I have never failed to learn something new and important from conversations such as this one. Sometimes the knowledge isn’t immediate and will only sink in days, weeks or months after the fact. Also — and I imagine you’re much the same way — there is tremendous value in writing out our thoughts and experiences because this serves as a means of sifting through and processing our experiences. Often, these need to be sifted many, many times.
It goes against the therapeutic recovery model which states the the recovering mental patient must have strong social support
well that was not true for me.
I cherished my aloneness it was the healing environment I needed.
I believe that this too goes back to imposed treatment and self-directed treatment. Ideally, people are free to move between the space of an outer circle (i.e., strong social support, which serves one kind of need) and the space of an inner circle (chosen solitude/quietude, which serves a different kind of need). What circle people need and when they need it will, naturally, vary according to that specific individual.
Marion: However, if someone feels, they have a fulfilled life in every regard but still need drugs, I think it’s to lull them into the maybe false belief, that this is as good as it can get.
I think that if people are insulated to the degree that they don’t know that other people are getting well without medication and they don’t know that there are alternative approaches out there, that’s a real risk. However, if they have been exposed to those possibilities, then, they know that there are options. This is why I believe it’s crucial that people be aware of the broad range of treatment options that are out there. That way, they can choose the one that best fits them. It may not always be the one we would choose for them, but it will be their choice.
In other words, “full recovery” in regard to so-called “mental illness” in my view equals to enlightenment, the complete absence of (existential/spiritual/ psychological/ whatever of that kind) suffering. While you can achieve that even though you’ve lost your legs, or are in other ways physically disabled, the need for psych drugs implies that you still suffer existentially.
In the youtube conversation where Jane and I first “met” the issue of enlightenment had come up then as well. I’ve struggled to unpack the definitions on that one as well — trying to define what “enlightenment” is is about as difficult as trying to define what “schizophrenia” is. However, I will share with you a terrific quote that I came upon at one point in time that has stuck with me: There are no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity. — Suziki Roshi.
I liked that. :)
By: spiritual_emergency on July 18, 2008
at 8:38 pm
My sister who actually lives in Frisco is a Zen Buddist and goes to the Zen Center in Oakland. I went once so I cannot comment other than to say she is more successful and mentally more stable than me. We both dealt with many of the sames issues in Mental Health. But she was never a Addict/alcoholic like me, just abused to an extent, but I think she found spiritual peace there, so that is her AA?NA.
By: dummidumbwit on July 19, 2008
at 12:39 am
The weekend was characterized by an intellectual blackout, that isn’t all overcome yet. So, I don’t know whether the following makes sense at all.
“People want to be deceived”, was an often used phrase at home.
I don’t think PEOPLE want to be deceived. But their egos want to be deceived. That having would equal being, is a deception. And the ego can only exist by having: It turns having a psych diagnosis into “I AM (a schizophrenic, bipolar, depressed, etc.)”
Some of the biggest egos work in the mental health industry. Somehow this system seems to magically attract the most insatiable egos (or: narcissists, with a psychological term). Full recovery, even as a concept only, confronts the ego with the possible loss of its raison d’être, with the end of suffering, with its death. So, the ego will do whatever it takes to avoid having to acknowledge the mere idea of full recovery as a possibility, to NOT end the suffering, and, if ever possible, to even increase the suffering. The mental health industry serves and supports egos (on both sides), not human beings. Also when it says, that someone can be recovered and still be on drugs.
I think, we can’t change that as long as this system exists, because it isn’t only its purpose to provide suffering, it is in itself the incarnation of suffering, of the ultimate ego-trip.
But as I can’t force anyone to see it that way, the “right” thing to do then, would be to say that TO ME recovery also means no drugs, but if someone wants to define themselves as recovered while still on some kind of drugs, I’ll have to accept that. (While my own, still quite alive and reactive, ego sometimes gives me a hard time accepting others’ egos and their need for suffering…)
I like the Suzuki Roshi-quote, too. And the article.
By: Marian on July 21, 2008
at 5:05 am
…it WAS a closing bracket, I KNOW, I hit the right key…
By: Marian on July 21, 2008
at 5:06 am
http://saltedlithium.wordpress.com/
We may be on data overload but I ran into this site, which may be of some interest?
By: dummidumbwit on July 21, 2008
at 8:59 am
dummidumbwit: One of my Danish blog-neighbours recently wrote: “I don’t want to be “the sober alcoholic” or “the single mother” or “the left wing environmentalist” or “the nice one” or “the smart one” etc. anymore. Those are altogether ways to observe myself, but they are far from being the truth about who I really am. Some of these stories, I’ve created myself, and I’ve sought out spaces where others could confirm them – this is what we humans do most – but I can’t identify with these spaces anymore…”
Some interesting posts at Salted Lithium, without doubt. But a somewhat claustrophobic sensation sneaks up on me, it gets difficult to breathe, whenever I enter spaces like this one, where it’s all about being/identifying as “mentally ill”/”bipolar”/whatever. And, although Jane, too, talks about “bipolar” and “mental illness” etc., I feel a spaciousness at her blog, that allows me to breathe and be who I am, “mentally ill” or not, “bipolar” or not. Like my Danish blog-neighbour, I prefer that spaciousness. – Some interesting posts, though, yeah. So, thanks for the link! I’ll drop by occasionally.
Went to have a look at your blog, the other day. “Baker Street”, geez! I haven’t listened to that since I gave away all my lp’s, 15 years ago or so.
By: Marian on July 22, 2008
at 3:37 am
Being all over the place, I might agree, in 1996 I went from being a music freak to a Computer freak, so I express my ancient hippie musical taste and try to help get a cleverly disguised New Deal Democrat elected?
By: dummidumbwit on July 22, 2008
at 10:01 am
dumdumwit: I am glad to hear your sister found peace and recovery from Zen, I love stories like that.
spiritual_emergency:
I don’t think I have ever made a video talk about enlightenment. I distinctly avoided any talking about enlightenment specifically for all the reasons mentioned in that article The Guru’s Trap by Andrew Paterson you linked. It was an excellent article too.
Almost I made a video about that sort of thing actually, warning people on youtube about false gurus that were/are on youtube vlogging now.
Marian:
I loved the link to isps!
There was a lot to read there! It slowed down my replies and my blogging for a bit. I am not complaining though. I like the Anne Seppi story and the delayed post traumatic stress article. I am glad I stopped to read up there!
By: Jane on July 24, 2008
at 12:24 pm
The site has a lot of interesting articles, yes. And I like the concept of “delayed PTSD”. As a matter of fact, if you compare the diagnostic criteria for “schizophrenia” to those for “PTSD”, the similarity is striking. Difference: an individual gets labelled “schizophrenic” if s/he can’t remember what happened, and “PTSD” if s/he can. Flimsy.
While I have no doubt, though, that whatever state of mind an individual experiences, it can be seen on a scan, I’m critical to the idea, that brain atrophy would be caused by the “illness”, since recent studies have shown brain shrinkage to be caused by neuroleptics, i.e. by the “treatment” rather than the “illness”. Something, you don’t even need studies to prove, I’d say. Just compare the cognitive abilities of someone who doesn’t take drugs to those of someone who does. With the difference becoming increasingly obvious proportionally to increasing “treatment” duration and drug dosage.
If it were true, that the “illness” causes brain atrophy, I’d be sitting here right now, more or less in a veggie-state, incapable of spelling two-letter-words correctly (exaggeration promotes understanding, as the Danish saying goes).
By: Marian on July 24, 2008
at 3:12 pm
(exaggeration promotes understanding, as the Danish saying goes).
I like that!!!
By: dummidumbwit on July 24, 2008
at 5:41 pm
[...] had a spike in hits from her site a couple weeks back in response to my Beyond Recovery? post. I guess stating that she was not recovered made her feel defensive. That certainly was not my [...]
By: Is suicide preventable? Let’s get real « Bipolar Recovery on August 8, 2008
at 2:03 pm